It's nearly time for the second Supersede Pre-order to start.
Pre-Order Timeline
This Tuesday April 12th at 14:00 CET the shop will have Supersede products displayed for 72 hours.
After 72 hours the shop will close on Friday April 15th at 14:00CET until the third pre-order round later this summer.
Last Minute Updates
Many of you have reached out to us and many new folks have recently discovered the project so it's great to hear the excitement going into this round. Those that have reached out have submitted a few requests that we decided to add to this round at the last minute.
Jets Stream Grey
Jet Stream Grey will be added again to the pre-order. Initially we decided to remove this dial colour based on the voting from the community however over time Jet Stream Grey has really started to grow on people. Even though it did not fair well in the votes it was the 3rd most purchased dial colour in the first pre-order.
We had a few images of the Jet Stream Grey circulating recently as well we have absolutely fell in love with the look of it after finally nailing down the correct shade for the dial.
Bracelets
At one point I had asked the community if we should include bracelets at checkout in case someone would like to have both a polished and brushed bracelet. Nearly all suggested we not offer it at checkout, however since then we have had those from the first pre-order round asking for it be available as well as new customers waiting for this round to have a chance at picking up a second bracelet.
Polished Centre Links
Brushed Centre Links
For this second pre- order round you can also purchase a second bracelet for 490 Swiss francs. Regular retail will be 690 Swiss francs and all bracelets will also ship with the micro-adjustment buckle.
Photographed Dial Colours
Prototyping and achieving just the right colour as communicated in our animations is very difficult. Until now we have shown most dial colours, but the Jet Stream Grey and Atoll Blue have been the hardest dial in. Below are images of each of how the colours will look. We used different situations and lighting to try to give you more of a real world perspective.
12:00 White
Boreal Green
Transatlantic Blue
Jet Stream Grey
Atoll Blue
Photo: Kevin Lo @the_vintage_guy
Photo: Kevin Lo @the_vintage_guy
Currently we are just preparing for the final media samples to be ready. We had hoped they would be completed by now, but Covid set back production. With the media samples we will be able to finish our studio photography of all dial colours. If you decide to change your mind after seeing the studio images we are happy to change the dial colour for you prior to the next pre-order round starting this summer.
Recapping Previous Forum Posts
As previously communicated we are still working on the waterproofness of Supersede. The goal is to reach 200 meters and we are keen to see if we will reach it. 100 meters is no issue, but doubling that is quite a challenge with such a big sapphire window to the K2 calibre.
The micro-adjustment clasp should be finished just after our pre-order ends so I will be back with an update on what the final technical prototype of it looks like.
As for the rotor the material is still heavily debated. The biggest issue with micro-rotors from other movement makers in the past was poor rewinding efficiency. Jonas our head of engineering is crunching tolerances and looking to squeeze the greatest rewinding efficiency out of K2. He has already achieved what he set out to do and looks to better upon that by selecting just the right rotor material. Whatever it is in the end it will be sure to keep Supersede ticking and might just turn a few heads.
Check Out Options
Like the first round we will offer a full payment option and a split payment option.
With the full payment option of 4,900 CHF you will receive an additional rubber strap.
With the split payment option of 2,450 CHF now and 2,450 CHF in summer the strap is not included.
Credit cards are accepted as well as bank transfer. If making a bank transfer please send a follow up email when you transfer has been made along with transfer details so we can mark your order as paid.
Tomorrow the pre-orders start again! Feel free to reach out in the comments with any questions you might have. Or email us at lostintime@horage.com
Till next time...
Landon Stirlin
@landon.stirling Hi Landon, having had to withdraw from my first round pre-order, I have placed a new order in this second round. I had a query about it and sent an email but haven’t heard back. Any chance someone could just come back to me please?
I was wondering if you’ve considered designing a “dot” or diamond into the sweeping second hand, similar to what you did on your Omnium watch? It might add some visual interest compared to a simple straight hand as is currently.
Quick question on lume… is the timing pip lumed? (Ie bezel at 12o’clock)
thanks
Hey Guys,
A thought crossed my mind regarding swapping straps on the Supersede. I think you guys mentioned that you would be including a tool in order to facilitate strap changes. Would it be possible to include a set (2 tools) similar to what Bell & Ross does with some of their watches? Ideally, one would be L-shaped and the other straight, which makes it much easier to hold the watch in place while using the other tool to remove one of the screws. And instead of machining the bit into the handle (which would not only require you to replace the whole tool if the bit end gets damaged, but also result in a ton of machining as well), you could design it like a screwdriver with a female end that accepts pre-fabricated bits, and either incorporate a magnet into the base, or a screw on the side of the handle to secure the bit in place. Then you can just order a bunch of bits from another supplier and include them with the tools when you ship them, instead of devoting too many resources to manufacturing bits for every single order.
Here's a sample of what I'm talking about taken from a website selling aftermarket versions of the B&R strap changing tool set. If the bits are the same shape and size, maybe you can even just order them already pre-made from whoever makes these, and laser engrave your own logo on the side.
Cheers,
Mike
As for water resistance, if you can’t get 200m, perhaps you can attain to 150m. The Omega aqua terra seems to market itself quite nicely at that depth and provides a significant advancement over a standard 100m. But I’m hoping for 200m!
Thank you again for all the detailed answers - this is amazing to hear your thoughts and insights on the design process.
I have one last question (I promise!) about the movement design - specifically the choice to increase the local hour in one direction and change the date in the other direction on the first crown position.
Most "true" GMT movements only move the local hour hand in both directions. With those as you said, if you don't use your watch for a while, or if you end a 30-day month, you need more turns to change the date.
Back to the K2. If I'm traveling from California to Europe, I can add +9 hours easily. Date should change if needed. But when flying back to the US, since all I can is increase the local hour, I would need to increase the time by 24-9=15 hours. But the date might be wrong (in the future) and would need to be adjusted as well (29-30 date changes to get back 1 day).
Traveling West would be similar, where the initial setting requires more adjustment than usual GMT movements (eg California to Taiwan :)
I know it's a tradeoff, just wanted to get your thoughts behind the design. As a caller GMT it's awesome, as a traveler GMT it can be a bit more involved than other movements.
Thank you!
The image for brushed bracelet shows the end link as polished. Should we expect the final brushed bracelet as entirely brushed?
Thanks
Hi Guys,
Congratulations on your success thus far, and I'm sure everyone appreciates the level of transparency you provide, and the promptness in responding to questions and concerns.
I apologize in advance if this information is posted elsewhere but was curious about a few things:
1) I couldn't find any information related to product warranties for your watches. What will the warranty support look like (timeframe, limitations, costs covered vs not covered, etc.) for the K2 Supersede?
2) Will you be incorporating quick release springbars into the design of both the bracelets and the rubber straps to allow for quick swap-outs between them?
3) If not already being made available, would it be possible to provide ongoing updates as to how many people have pre-ordered thus far, and if possible, by configuration?
I'm going to try my best to join the live stream tomorrow and come prepared with additional questions. LOL.
Thanks in advance for your consideration, Mike
Hi JF,
Good questions. Let me try to explain what we define as a robust sports utility watch. We all live an active live style related to watersports, snowboarding, skiing, tennis, rugby, soccer... Our products are not specifically made to accompany the sports activity in a permanent and professional manner, because therefore I would choose something like a Garmin or wear nothing. I think we can all agree on that. However our watches should withstand these activities if we happen to find ourselfs in them without having the time or wanting to take them off.
When we design for robustness, it is not necessarily only because we once in a while take it out for a spin or a ride, but also because daily active wear can put a lot of stress on a watch. It is kind of a self protection measure for us as a company to make sure that the watch is robust enough and does not get damaged too quickly.
From technical perspective designing for robustness means, that we leave enough security in a part, process or tolerance. What does this mean? Lets say a part should withstand a 10kg force without deformation. If we design the part to withstand this 10kg only without leaving security for more, then this would be not a good design. So we perhaps design the part to withstand 30kg which means it has a tripple security over its expected regular load. We try to understand in the best possible way the loads, forces, wear and tolerances by doing lots of simulation, but also and especially by testing as much as we can. Breaking stuff in other words... to find out what are the realistic metrics and then add enough security to make sure it is robust. Of course this is just one simplified scenario.
As you mentioned, making things slim is outmost challenging, because there is less room for securities and this is also the reason why we did not go as thin as it could be to leave certain room and play between the parts to assure these securities are sufficient. When the plates and bridges get too thin, the entire tolerance setup of the mechanical parts is endangered, because if a plate bends or deformes, the movement with all its gears, pins and springs will get into trouble. I think there are a lot of examples of super thin watches which are known to be not very robust. ;-)
Furthermore we try to choose tolerances as wide as we can in order to make sure we can use as many parts as possible coming of a lathe, mill, gearcutter.... Of course and especially in watchmaking these tolerances are very small when compared to automotive parts which makes manufacturing and designing for them so challenging.
The problem is that adding too much security on one part mostly leads to some weaker spot on another part or mechanism and our job in designing is to make sure that these weak spots are becoming neglectable without endlessly inflating form factor.
There are a lot of "fat" movements which are not very robust and we see this especially in the manufacture space. Just because not enough time was taken by the engineering team to derisk a technical design. Perhaps there was more focus on finishing than on the mechanical necessities of the product. And since there are many parts in such a movement, chances are high that there is a weak part or mechanism involved when not enough time was spent on engineering, testing, derisiking. We can see in this industry that many companies do not afford having big engineering teams which constantly can work on de-risking, which is somewhat puzzling when you want to call yourself a watchcompany.
Because we have to produce our watches in more than 500 piece batches we are forced to think industrial and thus automatically we have to assure robustness in order to survive. Because calling back a product due to flawed design is a major nightmare;-)
Typically there is only one prominent shock absorber in the movement and this is the one which also houses the bearingseat (ruby) for the balance wheel axle. This is the one you see on the single arm balance bridge. The rest of shock absorbing jobs are handled by the mechanical design of the parts themselves or the correct layout of some internal springs and clutch mechanisms to avoid overload.
Double or single arm balance bridge is an interesting example... if designed correctly the single arm balance bridge has the same mechanical strength as a double arm version and at the same time is perhaps better to manufacture. Just because it tends to be less exposed to surface tension than the double arm which usually needs a milling cut-out in the middle where the ruby sits. If designed too thin it can come off the machine distorted due to the overall surface tension or induced heat from the milling process. To prevent this from happening one typically has to add material in a place where you probably would not want it... right in the middle of this long bridge. Furthermore the single arm design leaves more room and visibility for the person regulating the movement. So we think it is the better mechanical choice to go for single arm.
It is nice to get these questions and I hope they are helpful. In general we try to reduce the trade-offs as much as we can and yes there are brands which sell cheap and not so cheap watches however surprisingly the cheap watches sometimes tend to be more robust than their expensive counterparts. From a business point of view I would say this is because there is less marging involved on a cheap watch and thus they need to be more focused on robustness to avoid returns at scale;-)
All the best
Andi
Thank you for all the detailed answers! One more question on movement robustness. Making a thin but reliable movement is a challenge, and this is intended to be a sports watch. We all know that "the other brand that uses 904L steel" is known for ultra robust movements - but those tend to be thicker and optimized for this. Same with the Japanese brand that sells cheap and not so cheap watches :)
How does the K2 approach that aspect? I don't see many shock absorbers on jewels, the balance spring bridge has a single arm rather than the usual double bridge for sports watches, etc. How will you test the movement for an active lifestyle?
Thank you again for the transparent design process!
One more question: Horage is a young and promising brand, but I wonder about your approach to parts and maintenance. What are the plans in place to ensure your watches can still be repaired 10 or 15 years from now? (parts availability)
Hi Horage team
I have a few technical questions:
1- When not used, is the home hour hand (the one without lume) under or over the local hour hand? Logically it should be hidden under the local one, but I wonder if that's the case based on the pictures...
2- What is the bracelet taper? It's 22mm wide at the case (with 16mm lug width) and then tapers to... 18mm? 16mm?
3- Is the date instantaneous or a more traditional slow change between 11:50pm and 1am?
Thank you!
Order placed... can't wait. So amazed by the work you all are able to do.
Is there also a new youtube stream with the new case prototype today?